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This is the transcript for the meeting that happened at Babu Bajrangi’s office at Naroda, Ahmedabad on August 10, 2007. The meeting is divided into two sessions—pre lunch and post lunch. This transcript is for the pre-lunch session. The session has been recorded into four files. I have transcribed only the relevant portions—anything even remotely significant is transcribed -- from each file.
Index of revelations
File 1
02:38:45/03919 (opening counter)
1. Here he says that he is facing charges of murdering 147 people but still he is ready to fight.
2. He says he has ‘rescued’ 956 Hindu girls from Muslim boys and thus in a manner of speaking has killed 5000 Muslims before they were born.
02:39:57/05204 (closing counter)
File 2
02:51:23/01279 (opening counter)
1. He says but for Narendra Modi he would have been still in jail.
2. He says the VHP did nothing for those Hindu rioters who were jailed except sending ration to their houses for a few months after the riots.
02:52:03/02002 (closing counter)
02:56:45/07018 (opening counter)
• He says after returning from Godhra he had announced that he would take revenge for those killed in the inferno on the Sabarmati train. He says he had collected 23 revolvers from Hindus by threatening them of dire consequences. These revolvers were collected a night before the Naroda massacre.
02:57:59/08359 (closing counter)
02:58:22/08771 (opening counter)
1. He says he was in touch with Jaideep patel, the Gujarat State VHP President, while the Naroda massacre was on.
2. Says there are 14 Muslims and 16 policemen as witnesses against him. He says the policemen have become witnesses under immense pressure. As on the day of the massacre they remained mute spectators and did not stop him and others from killing the Muslims.
3. Says that the police was in complete control of Ahmedabad and the rest of the Gujarat while the killings were happening. But Modi had instructed them to stand back and not stop the Hindu rioters.
03:02:11/12907 (closing counter)
File 3
03:08:59/04022 (opening counter)
• He says he has personal relations with Modi. Narrates an incident where Modi at his behest had got a Hindu boy who had become Muslim abducted.
03:09:40/04759 (closing counter)
03:14:00/09439 (opening counter)
1. Says if the judge were to ask him his last wish he would prefer to bomb 10-15000 Muslims before he dies.
2. Says there are two solutions for this menace called Muslims. One the order should come from Delhi to kill burn and loot them. This, he says, can be executed by lower caste Hindus living in slums. He cites the example of Naroda masscare where it were lowly castes who had carried out the killings. The second solution he says is to disenfranchise Muslims.
03:16:08/11741 (closing counter)
3:16:49/12494 (opening counter)
1. He says he and other Hindu rioters were better armed that’s the reason they could kill so many Muslims.
2. Confirms that BJP workers Bipin panchal and Manoj Videowala were also among the rioters.
3. Says people from the Congress were also among the rioters.
4. Says they had re-enacted the historic battle scene of haldighati at Naroda. Says there is a witness who says she had seen him cutting open a woman’s womb, taking the baby out and then rotating it on the tip of his sword. When I ask if its true he neither denies nor confirms.
Describes how a large number of Muslims were killed in the well. 3:20:16/16217 (closing counter)
File 4
03:20:21/00015 (Opening counter)
1. Babu continues to narrate how a large number of Muslims hiding in a dry well at Patya were ambushed and killed.
2. He says later in the evening the police had got instructions to shoot him at sight. But the Naroda Police Station PI Mysorewala alerted him and he ran away.
3. He says after 4 months when he was eventually arrested he never stated in the police statement that he was from the Bajrang Dal or VHP.
4. He describes how after four months of hiding Narendra Modi who was under immense pressure to get him arrested staged his arrest drama. PP Pandey, the then JCP crime, set up the entire drama. He gives a graphic description.
5. He says that while he was absconding he had spoken to Modi more than a couple of times over the phone. He says he stills keeps in touch with Modi but he can’t meet him openly because of the media. He says such is the respect he has for Modi that even if Modi asks him to become a suicide bomber and kill people he will not bat an eyelid.
6. He says he hates only two people—Muslims and Christians. He says he takes ‘remand’ of Muslims at his office.
7. He then asks his attendant to parade before me the 7-8 Hindu girls staying at his house. These girls he says he had rescued from their Muslim husbands or boyfriends. 03:28:55/09259 (closing counter)
The Transcript starts.
File 1
02:38:45/03919 (opening counter)
3. Here he says that he is facing charges of murdering 147 people but still he is ready to fight.
4. He says he has ‘rescued’ 956 Hindu girls from Muslim boys and thus in a manner of speaking has killed 5000 Muslims before they were born.
B: Main yeh bolta hu…main ek aadmi ko bola …adhikari…usko bola main mere ko sena me jaana bilkul achha hi nahi lagta tha aur abhi bhi main sena me hu to mere ko achha nahi lagta hai…maine janam liya hai yaha…RSS aur…shakha me aaj bhi jaata hu …main guru purnima ke din bhi gaya…barabar…to main bolo ki aaj…aur main to is parishad ko theth se paisa dete aaya hu…barabar saab…main paisa deta aaya hu kabhi maine voucher rakha ho…kabhi koi adhikaari ko maine gaali di hi ho…kabhi maine kuch nahi…mere pe ek sau sutalles murder lage hue hai…ek murder jab vanzara ko lag gaya to vanzara ki aisi taisi ho gay jo IPS officer hai IG officer tha…kiya ki nahi kiya wohh nahi bolne ka…hamare pe to ek sau sutalees murder lage hue hai…barabar saab…to hamari family aur hamari kya halat hogi…to bhi hum ladne ke liye tayar hai…chuppe hue nahi hai…uske baad me bhi main kitne 600 –700 ladkiya laaya hu…ek ladki panch bachhe paida karti hai…main abhi tak nau sau chaupan ladki laaya…ek hazaar ladki laaya to paanch hajar miye to humne jinda hone se pahle hi maar diye…barabar to usse achha kya chahiye aapko…sanghatan ko kya chahiye….02:39:57/05204 (closing counter)
I always say this….. I told someone, an officer…….I didn’t like joining the (Shiv) Sena, even today I am in Sena, but I don’t like here at all……..I have taken birth here…in RSS and even now attend shakhas…… I went on Guru Purnima also……right…..And I have been giving money to the Parishad right from the beginning…… I have always given money, have I put up any voucher, nor did I ever abuse any officer…. Never asked anything…..I have been charged with murdering 147 people……. Vanzara is running from pillar to post just by one murder, he is an IPS officer, an IG…… But there are 147 murders on my head, just imagine what would be the state of me and my family….. still I am willing to fight…..am not in the hiding……even after that, I have brought 600-700 girls…… one girl on an average gives birth to five children…… I have rescued 956 girls….. that’s around 1,000 girls, this way I have killed 5,000 Muslims even before they were born……. What more you want….. what more the organization wants…..
File 2
02:51:23/01279 (opening counter)
3. He says but for Narendra Modi he would have been still in jail.
4. He says the VHP did nothing for those Hindu rioters who were jailed except sending ration to their houses for a few months after the riots.
B: Narendra Bhai nahi hote na to hum log bahar hi nahi nikalte…yeh bhi aapko bolta hu…
I am telling you if Narendra bhai had not been there, we would have never come out……
T matlab aaj bahar…aap jail…
You are out of jail…….
B: paanch saal se jo hai jail me hi sadte hote…jo bhi parveen bhai ne hindutava ke naam pe bahut paisa…hamarre ghar to usne ek rupiya nahi diya…hum jo the thodi bahut keet bheji thi jo sad rahe hai uska koi bhaav hi nahi pooochne ka…
We would have been languishing in jail for five years…… whatever money Praveen bhai organized in the name of Hindutva……. He never even a single rupee to my home……. Some kits had been sent, nobody bothered about those languishing in the jail….
T: keet bheji thi matlab…
Sent kits, what’s that……
B; keet yani 5 kilo tail…keet ek banayi thi in logo ne thode din ke liye…
Kit containing 5 kg edible oil and household items……. They had distributed the kit for a few days…
T: ha har jagah inhone kiya tha…
They sent to everyone….
B: thode din ke liye bheji thi…
They had sent for a few days……
T: jo karyakarta jail me the…
To homes of those activists who were in jail?
B: karyakarta jail me the…
Yes, to them
T: aur usske baad koi…
And after that?
B: saat aath mahina bheji thi aur usske baad koi dhyan hi nahi…kaha hai
They had sent for seven-eight months, after that nobody bothered
02:52:03/02002 (closing counter)
02:56:45/07018 (opening counter)
• He says after returning from Godhra he had announced that he would take revenge for those killed in the inferno on the Sabarmati train. He says he had collected 23 revolvers from Hindus by threatening them of dire consequences. These revolvers were collected a night before the Naroda massacre.
B: main isko Togadia ko main ek baar poochne wala hu jahir me…kabhi poocha nahi hai saala…main yeh poochoonga sahab mere ko tumne…tum bade ho neta ho tumne kabhi kissi ko thapadd mara hai…barabar…
I am going to ask this to Toghadia in public some day….. I have never asked….. You are senior, you are a leader, have you even dared to slap someone…… right…..
T: kabhi kissi mussalman ko marra hai…
If he has killed any Muslim…..
B: kissi hindu ko bhi…mussalman to…tumne kisi hindu ko bhi thapad maara hai…tumko achhi bhasha aati hai bolne ke liye….tumne jhatkedaar bhasah bol ke mike me aisa kar dalo waisa kar dalo to humne kar daala…tumne humko nikaal diya (02:57:14/07543)
Even a Hindu…… Muslim comes later….. has he even slapped a Hindu……. He knows how to deliver spirited speeches…… He gave fiery speeches and said do-this do-that, so we did…… and he removed me……
T: aapne jo kiya wohh togadia ke kahne pe thodi na kiya…
But you didn’t do all that at Toghadia’s instance…..
B: humne togadia pe nahi humne to hindutava ke naam pe…godhra me gaye na jabhi humne challenge kar diya tha…kal hum iska prarinaam naroda me de denge…humne to agle din challenge kar di thi…humne to raat ko 23 revolver bhi ikattha kar li logo ka…ki bhai aapke paas revolver hai dene ka hai…nahi dene ka kal bahanchood tumko goli maarenge pahle…bhosdi ke tum hindu nahi ho…miye ki aulaad ho…
I didn’t do for Toghadia’s sake but for Hindutva….. When I went to Godhra, there only I declared we would give the reply to this in Naroda…….. this was a challenge…… we collected 23 revolvers also…. Asked people, if they would part with their revolvers….. if you don’t give, we will shoot them, if you don’t give, you are not a Hindu, you are a miye ki aulad……
T: logo ne di?
Did people give?
B: gaad marra ke di…warna maar dalte…mera to vajan itna hai main to khula bolta ho…in logo ki taqat nahi bahanchoodo ki madarchoodo ki…main to gusse me to…par hindu ke uppar mera haath nahi uthta hai itna mere pe kamzoori hai…hindu mere liye bhagwaan hai baki musalmano ki to gaad fatti hai mere se 02:57:59/08359 (closing counter)
They bloody well gave…… otherwise we would have killed them….. I have so much influence, I can say anything……. The bastards can’t dare…. When I am angry, I can….. But somehow, I can’t hit a Hindu, that’s my weakness……. Hindus are god for me, but Muslims are shit-scared of me….. 02:58:22/08771 (opening counter)
4. He says he was in touch with Jaideep patel, the Gujarat State VHP President, while the Naroda massacre was on.
5. Says there are 14 Muslims and 16 policemen as witnesses against him. He says the policemen have become witnesses under immense pressure. As on the day of the massacre they remained mute spectators and did not stop him and others from killing the Muslims.
6. Says that the police was in complete control of Ahmedabad and the rest of the Gujarat while the killings were happening. But Modi had instructed them to stand back and not stop the Hindu rioters.
T: jis din Naroda Patya hua us din Togadia kaha tha…tha ahmedabad me?
When Naroda Patiya happened, where was Toghadia….. in Ahmedabad?
B: Togadia nahi tha…
Toghadia was not there…..
T: wohh ayodhya me tha…Ayodhya me baitha hua tha khud to…
He was in Ayodhya….. so he was away in Ayodhya…..
B: Togadia nahi tha…doosre the Jaideepbhai..baki sab…Jaideepbhai waideephai the to…wohh sab bahar the…phone pe baat hoti thi…paper me bhi aaya tha na…abhi aaya tha…
Toghadia was not there…… there was Jaideep bhai…. And others…. Jaideep and all were there…… used to talk to them on phone…… it was in papers also…… recently only
T: kuchh paper me commission ke samne kuchh aaya tha…
Some papers had reported the deposition before the Commission…
B: hmm…aaya tha…bole babu bajrangi ne itni baar baat ki…
Yes, it had come…… said Babu Bajrangi spoke so many times….
T: to baat karne se kya hai…
So what if you talked……
B: wohh to theek hai main to …mere sabhi log me 14 musalmaan hai aur 16 policewale hai…total mere against me…
All that I don’t bother……. There are 14 Muslims and 16 policemen testifying against me….
T: kyu hai…policewale kyu virodh me hai…
Why so, why policemen…..
B: policewale wahe khade rahwe the …phir bhosdi ke bataya bahanchoodo ne…sarkari naukri ke liye…pressure aaya…dhai baje raat ko…
Policemen were standing there only…… then they said later….. there was pressure on them…….. at 2.30 in the night……
T: wohh waha khade hue the jab ho raha tha…
They were standing there when this was happening…..
B: ho raha tha to khade the sab…
Yes, they were standing when it was happening
T: Naroda me khade hue the…
They were in Naroda only…..
B: ha…sab pahchaana…sab khade the…yeh to hum bolenge… Yes…… all known….. all were standing……. This I would say….
T: to unhone beech me…
Did they try to….
B: kuchh bhi nahi kiya…
They didn’t do anything…..
T: intervene nahi kya…
Didn’t they intervene….
B: kuchh bhi nahi…humne to bol diya tha tum khade raho warna maar padegi…khade the sab…
Nothing at all….. I had told them to stand by the side, or we would thrash them too….. so they were all just standing…..
T: lekin baad me bayan de diya aap ke…
But later gave statements against you…
B: fir raat ko dhai baje unhone sab diya…babu bhai itnne baje se itnne baje…chaudah…
Later, at 2.30 in the night they gave statements….. Babu bhai was here from this time to this time…….. 14…..
T: ussme Narendra bhai kuchh nahi kar sakte hai aapne liye…
Couldn’t Narendra bhai have done something for you?
B: nahi us time pe narendrabhai ke uppar bahut pressure aa gaya…bichhare pe…narendrabhai kya hua…narendrabhai ekdam saala police kuchh nahi kar rahi thi…police chahti to nahi karne deti…par usske baad me narendrabhai ke uppar koi pressure aa gaya…narendrabhai taatkalik force maangai…usske baad itna bada pressure aa gaya…court commission…bahanchod muslim….
No, there was sudden pressure on Narendra bhai…… the poor guy….. narendra bhai, police was not doing anything at all…. If they had wished, they won’t have allowed us to do anything…… some pressure was mounted on Narendra bhai…… he immediately ordered for forces…….. then the pressure increased………. Court commission…… sister-fucker Muslims…..
B: hamare patya pe koi aisa nahi hoga jo nahi aaya hai…lallu
There won’t be anyone who hasn’t come to Patiya…… Lalu
T: bataya aapne ki yaha pe VIP room bana diya tha…
You said there was a VIP room set up here…..
B: koi aisa nahi hoga jo yaha nahi aaya ho…jab bhi koi dihar aata tha na to yaha teen chaar room the…wohh aate hai na automatic uttha ke rakh do…wohh bhukamp ke aate hai…
There is none who has not come here….. there were three-four rooms set up here…… Those collapsible ones which could be taken anywhere, which were used during the earthquake…..
T: movable
B: AC…waha sab aate the…aate the to ek case badtta tha hamaarre uppar…ek kalam daal ke jaate the….koi aisa nahi jo aaya ho ek kalam hamare liye kam kar ke gaya ho
Every came…… and each one who came got added one more section (of Indian Penal Code) on me…… there was none who came and got a charge or two dropped…….
B: aate the woww wow kar ke aur ek kalam bada ke chale jaate the…
They would all come barking, add a section or two and leave…..
T: lalu walu sab bahut badmash hai…
Lalu and all are badmash…….
B: bahut bahut…idhar hero sab aa gaye…paanch saat to hero aa gaye bhosdi ke…
Very much so…….. heroes all came here……… five-seven of them came…
T: yeh film ke hero…
Film stars?
B: filam ke hero…
Yes, film heroes
T: aapko maarna chahiye tha unko…
You could have thrashed them
B: arey kya…kitna protection rahta hai inlogo ke paas…
Could not……. They had so much police protection with them…
T: shahrukh khan sab aaye honge musalmaan…
Shahrukh Khan and all Muslim ones must have come….
B: sab kitne log aaye the…kitne log…us time…
So many of them came… so many…
T: naseruddin shah…
Naseeruddin Shah….
B: arey amitabh bachhan…sab idhar gad maarane ke liye…gareebo ko dene ke liye…
Even Amitabh Bachchan……. All got their arses screwed here…. To give to poor…..
T: us din naroda patya wale din narendra bhai ne koi saath nahi diya aapna?
On the day of the Naroda Patiya incident, didn’t Narendra bhai support you?
B: kidhar?
Where?
T: narendra bhai…us din saath nahi diya narendra bhai modi ne jis din naroda patya …us din?
The day Patiya happened, didn’t Modi support you?
B: ussne to sab ram naam kar diya na yaar nahi to kiski taqat thi…sab uska hi hath hai bhai…nahi to police ko instruction dewe to gaad phaad dewe police…
It was only because of him, otherwise who would have dared…… it’s all his handiwork……. For, if he gave instructions to police, they would screw our happiness…..
T: aisa kar sakti thi police…
Could police have done this?
B: ha kar sakti thi na sahab…bakayada control tha police ka…
It could have done for sure……. There was proper control of the police there…..
T: tha waha par…
They had control there?
B: bakayada control tha poore shahar me…poore Gujarat me…kissi ko kuchh nahi karne ka…jo kare karrne do…do din tak narendrabhai ka control tha…teesre din se…
Absolutely, they had total control over the entire city….. in entire Gujarat…….. nobody was allowed to do anything…… let whoever do what he wants…… for two days, Narendra bhai was in total control….. from third day……
T: to teesre din se yeh pressure atal bihari bajpayee ka …
So, from third day, the pressure came from Atal Behari Vajpayee…..
B: sabka uppar se aaya na pressure…arey sonia wonia sab aa ke khad gayi na yaha…
All pressure came from the top……. Sonia wonia all came here……
T: nahi sarkaar to apni thi us samay na…
The government was yours only that time……
B: sarkar apni…virdoh paksh to seedha yahi aayega na sab…sonia aa gayi …rashtrapati a gaye sab aa gaye na
Govt is ours…… but Opposition parties would straight come here only…… Sonia came……. The President came, all came…..
T: uske saath me narendra ko narendrabhai ko to aana hi pade…patya…us time to laashe waashe dekh ke sab civil me bhare pade the…seedhe lashoo pe hi jaate the na sab log…seedha camera wohh waha hi padte the sale…isliye unko control karna bhaari pad gaya…aisa tha 03:02:11/12907 (closing counter)
If they come, obviously Narendra bhai would have to come with them to Patiya……. That time, the Civil Hospital was overflowing with bodies……. Everybody would go there only….. The cameras also focused there……. That’s why it became difficult to control them….. It was like this……
File 3
03:08:59/04022 (opening counter)
• He says he has personal relations with Modi. Narrates an incident where Modi at his behest had got a Hindu boy who had become Muslim abducted.
T: agar yeh (Togadia) bigadte na to narendra bhai madad karte rahte?
If Toghadia didn’t do anything for you, Narendra bhai must be keeping on helping you…..
B: arey sau taka…abhi to VHP bahut top ka hota…vishwa ka pahla number ka hota Gujarat me…
100 per cent……. Then, VHP was at the top……. Gujarat was number one in the country
T: to narendra bhai ne aapki madad bhi band kar di?
So, Narendra bhai stopped helping you?
B: sab…main to personal abhi jaa ke...personal relations mera hai bas…
I have personal relations……. I can go now……
T: narendra bhai se?
With Narendra bhai?
B: narendra bhai se…
With Narendra bhai…..
T: milte hai?
Does he meet you?
B: ha milta hu…aur main ek do baar mila bhi…ek apna hindu tha panchaal…wohh maine bola tha…
Yes, I have met him…… I have met a couple of times…… There was one Hindu called Panchal……..
T: bipin panchal…
Bipin Panchal…..
B: wohh terrorist…nahi bipin panchal to idhar ka wohh doosra tha…wohh terrorist banne ja raha tha…muslamaan usko bana diya tha…sahab se maine baat kiya…sahab ne officer ko baat kar ke usko utha liya…hindutava ka kaam karte hai 03:09:40/04759 (closing counter)
That terrorist……. No, another Bipin Panchal of Ahmedabad…… he was going to become a terrorist……. He was converted to Islam……. I spoke to sahab (Modi)…….. Sahab spoke to an officer and got him abducted…….. He is doing the work of Hindutva….
03:14:00/09439 (opening counter)
3. Says if the judge were to ask him his last wish he would prefer to bomb 10-15000 Muslims before he dies.
4. Says there are two solutions for this menace called Muslims. One the order should come from Delhi to kill burn and loot them. This, he says, can be executed by lower caste Hindus living in slums. He cites the example of Naroda masscare where it were lowly castes who had carried out the killings. The second solution he says is to disenfranchise Muslims.
T: iisse appne ko kuchh parehsaani ho sakti hai kya…telephone…
Can this put you in trouble….. Telephone…..
B: mere ko to koi pareshaani…main to yeh sunashichit kar liya hai ki phaasi chahiye…to fir kya pareshaani…jhanjhat kisko ho ki bhai mere ko saja nahi chahiye…main judge ko bhi maroonga saja di to…main bolong fasi de…fir kya chhaiye…faasi dene ke baad ek baar bolte hai na ki kya chahiye tumko…main bologna ek kam karro do din ki chuuti do mere ko…mai bologna bahanchood 10-15 bomb womb leke 10 –15 hajaarmiyuu ki maa chod daalo…
I have no problems……. I have decided that I want to be hanged….. so why should I fear anyone…… I don’t want punishment……. I will thrash the judge if he punishes me….. Will tell him to give me death sentence……. What else one wants……. After that, when he asks for my last wish, I will request the judge to give me two days break….. Will take 10-15 bombs and f*** the mothers of 10/15,000 (Muslims)
T: mujhe lagta hai jo musalmaan hai eh caner nahi ho jaata hai ek tumor nahi ho jaata hai to tumor ka ilaaj kya hota hai kaat ke nikalna aur tumour ko dawa se nahi sahi kiya jaa sakta hai…to inka baas yahi ilaaj hai…
What do you think is the solution to the Muslims? For if they are like tumour, it has to be removed……
B: inke do teen ilaaz hai dekho sahab…ek ilaaz yeh waha se order ho dilli se ki kaanto…badi samaj yaani bania Brahman ya paisedaar log nahi jayenge…waha jayega kaun chopadpatti wale jayenge…
There are two-three solutions…….. One is that Delhi should issue orders to kill…….. Higher caste people like Brahmins and rich sections of the society won’t go………. Slum-dwellers and poor would go there……
T: neeche …neeche tabke…
Lower strata of society
B: neeche tabke waale jayenge…unko yeh aadesh diya jaye…
They will go…… they should be ordered…..
T: nahi hamaare jaise kuchh naujawan jaayenge…
May be, some youngsters like us may go……
B: bahut kam..barabar saab…hum log to kya dekha humne …hamare chopadd patti wale saath jyada the…baki to sab ha hu karne me the…
Very few….. what I saw…… only our slum-dwellers were together…… rest only speak…..
T: naroda me…
In Naroda….
B: naroda me…peeche sab ha hu karne wale…baki jo the wohh neeche wale hi the…
In Naroda……. Others only speak…… those in the action were lower sections….
T: chopadd patti wale…
Slum-dwellers…..
B: to yeh kaam kaun karega neeche wale karenge…
Those from the lower strata will do this work…..
T: neechi jaat waale log…
Lower caste people……
B: neechi jaat waale…inko order diya jaaye…jitna miya ka zameen jaydaat makaan hai loot lo…tumko teen din ka mahulat diya jaata hai…poore bharat me se khalaas ho jaayenge….
Yes, lower caste people……. They should be ordered that whatever they wanted to loot of Muslims, land, wealth, houses, everything, they could do so in three days…… They will be wiped out from entire India……
T: jaise narendra bhai ne gujarat me diya waise agar poore bharat me de de…
In the same way, as Narendra bhai ordered in Gujarat, if such a directive is given in the entire country…..
B: poore bharat me ho jaye barabar sahab…poore bharat me ho jawe to miya poore kat pat ke poore ho jaawe…yeh ilaaz hai …doosra ilaaz musalmaan shadi ek kare bachha ek paida karre… aur usko koi mataadhikaar nahi…03:16:08/11741 (closing counter)
If it happens in the entire country, all Muslims would get killed and finished…… that’s one solution, another is that Muslim should be allowed only one marriage and one child………. And then disenfranchise them…….
3:16:49/12494 (opening counter)
5. He says he and other Hindu rioters were better armed that’s the reason they could kill so many Muslims.
6. Confirms that BJP workers Bipin panchal and Manoj Videowala were also among the rioters.
7. Says people from the Congress were also among the rioters.
8. Says they had re-enacted the historic battle scene of haldighati at Naroda. Says there is a witness who says she had seen him cutting open a woman’s womb, taking the baby out and then rotating it on the tip of his sword. When I ask if its true he neither denies nor confirms.
9. Describes how a large number of Muslims were killed in the well.
T: us din naroda ke din inke paas haithiyar the…miyaoo ke paas..
Did the Muslims have weapons on the day Naroda Patiya happened…….
B: hathiyar kam the na…hamaare paas jyada the…tabhi yeh mar kha gaye… ab nahi kha sakte maar aur doosri baat kya hum log ladne nahi jaawe…main to chokha bolne wala aadmi hu na…koi aa ke bolta hai lado…aiy teri bahan ko chode kaun ladega…aisi halat ho gayi hai…
They had fewer than us, that’s they got killed……. Now they are prepared, but even if they have more, shouldn’t we go out to fight….. I talk frankly…….. Somebody comes and asks us to fight……. Who will fight, the situation is such….
T: ab nahi ladenge…
You won’t fight now…
B: nahi nahi hum log ek ke ladne se kya hoga…koi nahi ladne aawe kyuki usski parsithithi yeh kar di aapan ne …aaj musalmaan log tayaar ho gaye unhone govt se paisa liya bahar ke samaaj se paisa mila bahaar ke NGO se paisa milla…usske sale ek parivaar marra to usko to 15-20 lakh milla…ussne ghar war banaya…aaj hamare paas to paisa humko koi zaroorat nahi hai…par jo gareeb hamaare saath lada jo jail me tha wohh bahar aaya hai usske sale choopdi me sab bik gaya uski bahan thukwane jaa rahi usko paisa nahi hai to kya karega usko dekh ke hazar og nahi ladenge doosre…(03:17:42/13440)
What can just a few of us do….. Nobody will come to fight for their situation is pathetic……. Muslims are now prepared because they got money from everywhere; from the government, from the community, from the NGOs, on an average kin of every dead person got Rs. 15 lakh to Rs. 20 lakh…… They constructed their houses…….. This side, I have money I don’t need….. but the poor who fought with us, who went to jail and when they came out, everything in their shanty has been sold out, sisters of some have to sell themselves; now, if they have been reduced to this situation, others won’t come out to fight seeing them suffer like this…..
B: nahi pahle koi parveen bhai ko haath bhi lagata tha na…cheek bhi aati thi na yaha busse jal jaati thi…ab parveen bhai ki kitni bar dhar pakde hui …bhosdi wale ne kitne elaan diye koi chatni bhi nahi aati..kahi pathaar bhi nahi concrete bhi nahi maar jaata…
Earlier, if somebody even touched Praveen bhai, or even if he sneezed, many buses would be set on fire……. Now, despite so many calls by the f***** nobody comes….. nobody even throws a stone or pebble…..
T: ab VHP ke naam se Naroda Patya me log nahi niklenge…
Now, people won’t come out in Naroda Patiya on VHP’s calling….
B: naroda patya nahi poore Gujarat me…
Not just Naroda Patiya, in entire Gujarat…..
T: aur BJP ke naam se niklenge Naroda me…
And will people come out in the name of BJP in Naroda…..
B: BJP to kaha danga karti hai…
BJP doesn’t engineer riots
T: lekin us din Bipin Panchaal wagairah inke saath log the…
But, those people with Bipin Panchal and others?
B: the sab the…ussme congress bhi thi…dekho saab…us time congress ke karyakarta bhi saath me the maroo kaato…
Everyone was there….. even Congressmen were there….. even Congress workers were in the killing spree….
T; apne saath me the…
They were with you….
B: maro kato…ussme congress bhi thi…koi ussme nahi hindu aur muslim do ho gaye the…muslim hindu…bas (03:18:30/14315)
Everyone… Congress also…. Were there…… It had all got split into two: Hindu and Muslim…
T: yeh Bipin Panchaal ne mardangaayi dikhaiyii…in logo ne bhi us din?
Bipin Panchal was also in the…..?
B: the na…
Yes, they were there…
T: Manoj Videowala…
Manoj Videowala…..
B: the na…
He was there…..
T: kaun tha wohh…Manoj Videowala nam tha na…
Who was he? His name was Manoj Videowala…?
B: they yeh log they…kya ua bechharo ko…
Yes, they were there…… see, what happened to those poor guys….
T: inke saath bhi daga hua…
They were also cheated….
B: nahi inko BJP ne pakad liya…police ne bahut saath diya unko (03:19:00/14843)
No, BJP caught them….. police supported them….
T: congressi bhi apne saath the us din…
Congressmen were also with you that day……
B: ha they…sab the us din hindu muslim tha khali…hindu idhar tha muslim udhar tha…mere pe inhone achep lagaya na babu bajrangi ne talwaar se pet cheera…bachha bahar nikala talwaar pe ghumaya…main bathroom se dekh rahi thi …ek bayan aisa diya hai…kaha se bhosdi ki dekh rahi thi…
Yes, they were, everyone was there…. There were Hindus and Muslims….. Hindus on one side, the Muslims on the other….. They have alleged that Babu Bajrangi slit open a womb, killed the foetus with a sword and that the woman who says this, says she was seeing all this from the bathroom……. From where the bitch was seeing?
T: sahi achaip lagaya hai…
It is true allegation….
B: kya maloom…wohh dekh rahi thi…
How do I know….. she saw all that….
But tell me, is this true allegation?
B: kya maloom wohh dekh rahi thi…main to…aisa ha us din humne haldighaati ka yudh kar diya…ab nahi ho sakta…
How do I know she was seeing it……. I was…. That day, we had declared a Haldighati ka yudh….. Can’t happen now…..
T: aap ne khud mare do chaar…
Did you also kill some….
B: arey kya bole…maare nahi mare…zabardast ho gaya tha…ab nahi aayega…waisa mauka bhi nahi aayega…
What do I say…… killed or not killed….. It was incredible…. It won’t come again…… such an opportunity won’t come again……
T: bataiye na aap ne khud mare do chaar…
Please say did you also kill some…..
B: nahi mare nahi the …magar cheeta muh pe lagta hai…
No, I didn’t kill……
B: mare hote na to itne nahi marte…par yeh log kaise mar gaye maloom hai …ek kuwa tha…aisa ek khadda tha khadda…khadde me saaley sab aa ke chupp gaye…phir idhar se tola aa gaya
3:20:16/16217 (closing counter)
If I had killed, I won’t have called this many…… You know how did so many people die….. there was a well……. Meaning a huge, deep low-lying ground…… All Muslims came and hid themselves in that ground…… then a mob came from the other side….
File 4
03:20:21/00015 (Opening counter)
8. Babu continues to narrate how a large number of Muslims hiding in a dry well at Patya were ambushed and killed.
9. He says later in the evening the police had got instructions to shoot him at sight. But the Naroda Police Station PI Mysorewala alerted him and he ran away.
10. He says after 4 months when he was eventually arrested he never stated in the police statement that he was from the Bajrang Dal or VHP.
11. He describes how after four months of hiding Narendra Modi who was under immense pressure to get him arrested staged his arrest drama. PP Pandey, the then JCP crime, set up the entire drama. He gives a graphic description.
12. He says that while he was absconding he had spoken to Modi more than a couple of times over the phone. He says he stills keeps in touch with Modi but he can’t meet him openly because of the media. He says such is the respect he has for Modi that even if Modi asks him to become a suicide bomber and kill people he will not bat an eyelid. Says but for Modi neither Patya now Gulbarg would have happened.
13. He says he hates only two people—Muslims and Christians. He says he takes ‘remand’ of Muslims at his office.
14. He then asks his attendant to parade before me the 7-8 Hindu girls staying at his house. These girls he says he had rescued from their Muslim husbands or boyfriends.
T: petrol kuwe me daal diya…
So petrol was poured in the well (the ground)
B: ha...khadha tha…bahut bada ghada tha (explains with his hands)…udhar se aawe fir idhar se nikal nahi sakte the…ussme se…jo bahar niklta tha usko kaanta bahanchod…saab jab commissioner dekhne aaya na to commissioner aisa bolta hai bahanchod …
It was a deep and wide low-lying ground…… You could come into it only from one side but can’t run out from the other end…… they were there….. whoever could come out, was killed….. When Commissioner came to see, the f***** says….
T: kaisa lagta hai musalmano ko…
How are Muslims feel……
B: dekho to bola babu bajrangi ko …mera oder tha… dekho waha thaak ka order de diya tha mere ko…main police… PI ne rider bheja mere ghar pe bola babu bhai …rider aaya bola dekho to thaak ka order hai …raat ko dhai baje…commissioner de ke gaya hai aur humko maloom hai is liye…poocha bhi gaya to bole ghar pe nahi hai …main raat ko bhaga…tab in bhai ogo ko phone kiya to bole bhaag jao….aisa…(3:21:14/00974)
He asked that there was an order for Babu Bajrangi……. The inspector sent a cop to my home saying there is order…… at 2.30 in the night….. he said Commissioner had given the order, but was told I was not at home…… I ran away in the night….. then, when I called these people, they asked me to run away….
T: lekin mujhe garv hota hum logo ko garv hota hai aapke uppar… Many are proud of you……
B: garv hota hai …hum log abhi bhi bolte hai…hum log nahi bolte hai ki aisa hai…aap ko takleef hoti hai to hum bolenge VHP me nahi hai…hum nahi bolte the…nahi bolte the …pakda gaya 22 din ka hamaara remand…humne nahi likhwaya hum bajrang dal VHP me the…hum log nahi…hum log the hi nahi…hum log bajrang dal me bhi nhi hai…hum VHP me nahi hai….choor logo ne to humko press note deke nikaal diya (03:21:49/01610)
Proud, yes…… We will not say all this happened…… if it troubles them, we will say we are not in VHP…….. I didn’t say it……. Handed down 22-day remand….. I never gave a statement that I am in VHP-Bajrang Dal….. I said I was not in VHP and not even in Bajrang Dal…… but they gave out in the Press and removed me……
T: ha matlab aissi baat aayegi to hum kah denge bhai hum nahi hai …
Means, you are prepared to say you are not in VHP if such a situation arises……
B: ha hum bolne ko tayaar hai…hum pahle bole the…jab humko pakdde aur le gaye the patya kand me…bole tum bajrang dal waale ho…hum bole nahi hamarra bajrang dal se koi lena dena nahi hai…samajh gaye…
Yes, I am prepared to say that……. I had said earlier also…… when I was arrested for Patiya….. they told me I am from Bajrang Dal….. But I still said I have nothing to do with the Bajrang Dal…… you followed…..
T: aap ko spot se hi pakad laaye the yeh log…aap ko mauke se hi pakad liya tha…
Did they arrest you from the spot of the incident only….
B: nahi humko bahut baad me chaar mahine baad…
No, much later, after four months….
T: achha chaar mahine baad…chaar mahine baad pakad ke laaye aapko…
I see, they arrested you after four months….
B: baad me.
Yes, later….
T: Lekin us din bhi aap kah rahe the aapko police station le gaye the us din.
But the other day you were saying you had been taken to a police station that day….
B: nahi police station nahi…main nikla tha…aur dhai baaje humko maloom pad gaya tha. PI ko phone kiya tha. Bole aana mat. Nahi to dekho to thayar hai.
No, not at the police station…… that day I was out and got to know at 2.30. I had called the Police Inspector…. He told me not to go to the police station……. Otherwise “dekho to” , its ready….
T: dekho to?
What’s dekho to?
B: dekho waha tumko udda denge…
He said they would bump me off there….
T: aisa PI ne bola order hai…
PI said there was such an order?
B: ha order hai…
Yes, that there was an order…
T: ussne bol diya ki aana nahi…
He told you not to come….
B: tumahara dekho. Babu Bajrangi ko jaha dekho waha maar do.
There was an order to shoot Baju Bajrangi at sight….
T: to yeh kaam usse achha kiya ki ussne bata diya aapko…
So, he did a good job to have alerted you….
B: bata diya tha mereko…bole tum bhaag jao…
He told me….. told me to run away….
T: kaun PI tha
Who was the PI?
B: yaha apne mysorewala.
Our Mysorewala….
T: Mysorewala…yeh kam usse achha kiya bata diya aapko. Na batata to…
Mysorewala…… he did well to alert you….. otherwise……
B: bola main kuchh bhi nahi kar sakta hu…mera phone aaya yeh bhi mat bataana kissi ko…phir ek bhi rider bhi bheja tha mere ghar pe…ab wohh paristhithi me apne bachho ki kya halat hoye sahab…
He said he couldn’t do anything…… said don’t even tell anyone that I called…… then, he sent a cop also to my home……. Just think what would be situation of my children that time……
T: to chaar mahine phir baad aapne surrender kaise kiya?
Then, how did you surrender after four months….
B: phir wohh narendra bhai bole na…
Then, Narendra bhai said…..
T: narendra bhai modi ne bola?
Narendra bhai Modi told you?
B: ussko khoob pressure aa gaya…media TV inti chaliti thi na…babu bajrangi gunda hai…lallu bole waha vidhan sabha… sansad me bola gaya uskko pakda nahi ja raha hai…ussko khoob pressure aa gaya…
There was lots of pressure on him…… the media was continuing with its coverage…….. that Babu Bajrangi is a goon…… Lalu said in Parliament that I was not being arrested….. there was great pressure on him……
T: narendra bhai ke uppar…
Pressure on Narendra bhai?
B: ha narendra bhai…phir to rajkaran pe hi aa jawe…main bola theek hai sahab aap bolte hai to hajir ho jaata hu...
Yes, Narendra bhai…….. so, he asked me to come….
T: unhone kaha aap surrender ho jayieey…
He asked you to surrender….
B: ha…surrender ho jaoo…phir surrender hua to kitni gadiya pakadne aayi thi…12 –13 gadiya…
Yes…… you surrender…… When I surrendered, so many vehicles came to arrest me….. some 12/13….
T: kaha se surrender hue aap?
Where did you surrender from?
B: idhar Gandhi nagar ke baju me…idhar highway pe…phir bol ke surrender hua tha…ek natak tha wohh…wohh natak tha …
From highway near Gandhinagar……. Then I had said and surrendered…….. it was all a drama……. It was drama…..
T: kaise kaise hua?
How did it all happen?
B: wohh natak tha…ki bhai police ko bola crime walo ko…ki bhai is jagah se main nikal raha hu…to baat ho gayi sab…phir uska wohh…PP Pandey sahab bhi the…sab baat ho gayi phir crime ke ek commissioner aur sab 12-13 gadiya thi…
It was a drama…… Told police, the crime branch….. Told them that I would be passing from this place….. PP Pandey sahab was also there….. everything was finalized and with a commissioner of crime branch, 12/13 vehicles came…..
T: PP Pandey kaun?
Who PP Pandey?
B: wohh jab commissioner the…yaha crime ke main…
He was a commissioner….. in the crime branch…
T: unse baat ho gayi thi pahle se…
You had talk with him earlier…..
B: unse baat ho gayi thi uppar se…phir bole kab kitne baje nikloge…to yeh log biloda se gandhinagar jaane ke rastey pe khade the…checking kar rahe thi gadiyu ki…us time
Yes, he must have had a talk with the top……. Then he asked what time would I start….. So they waited on the road from Bhiloda to Gandhinagar, checking vehicles at random….
T: to phir aap gaye waha par…
So you reached there……
B: jaane ka na…wohh gola diya tha…wohh seedha crime me jao to media wale pattar phaad dale inka to NGO waale ma chod dale…ye to sahab sab natak tha…phir bole waha itni bali…waha se nikaalte wohh pakad liya…babu bajrangi…waha rassi wassi me bandha…sab natak kiya…
Needed to go…… had to enact the drama….. if I go straight to the crime branch and surrender, the media will shred me to pieces, and so will the NGOs…… all this was drama…… As I passed from that road, they caught me…… Babu Bajrangi caught…… They tied me with ropes……. All enacted a drama…
T: ha..kya kiya?
What all?
B: wohh rassi wassi me bandh ke li aaye…
They tied me with ropes and brought me….
T: rassi me bandha aapko…
They tied you with ropes?
B: bola khadi khadi baandh rahe hai…
They said they were tying just for the heck of it…..
T: kya bole?
What did they say?
B: bole aise dikhawa karne ke liye baandh rahe hai…bole theek hai bhai baandho…phir aage peeche gadiya sab…
They said they were tying me to make a show of it…. Then there were vehicles….
T: narendra bhai nahi millne aaye?
Didn’t Narendra bhai come to meet you?
B: narendra bhai aawe to mar jawe na narendra bhai…narendra bhai ki yo hum aasha hi nahi rakhte hai…aaj bhi nahi rakhte hai …
If he comes to meet me, he will have to face the consequences……. I didn’t even hope to see him….. Even today, I don’t hope……
T: to phone pe baat kaari kabhi unhone aapse ?
Did he talk to you ever on the phone?
B: aise to main milne jaata hu …paan asie nahi…phir to saali duniya madarchood hai na..
That way I have met him…… but not just like that…… the world starts singing….
T: lekin yeh jab aap farrar the tab unhone…
But when you were absconding, how did he…..
B: hm...do teen baar meri unse phone pe baat hui…
Two-three times I did speak to him on the phone……
T: phone pe baat karri unhone…
He talked on the phone…..
T: matlab encourage karte hai wohh….
He would encourage you…..
B: marad aadmi hai narendra bhai…
T: protsahan dete hai…
Encourage karte hain……
B: aaj bhi humko bole babu bahi tumko yeh bomb baandh ke kahi kood jaana hai to kood jaawe…ek minute nahi lagawe ek second nahi lagawe ek second ki bhi deri nahi karre …hum saala bomb latka ke jaha bole waha kood jaawe…hindu ke liye…
Even today, if he tells me to tie a bomb on myself and jump somewhere, it won’t take even a minute, it won’t take even a second’s time…… I could hang a bomb on me and would jump…… for Hindus…..
T: agar wohh us samay na hote to yeh naroda patya gulbarg waigarah…
If he was not there here that time, Naroda Patiya, Gulbarg etc…..
B: nahi hota…
Won’t have happened……
T: kuchh nahi hota na…
Nothing would have happened….
B: bahut mushkil
Very difficult
T: bahut mushkil tha…
Very difficult, indeed…
3:25:36/05692 (closing counter)
3:28:01/08287 (opening counter)
T: aap ko dekhne se nahi lagega ki matlab yeh aadmi jo hai …
Nobody can believe from your personality that this man…….
B: tab sau policewale mangaa liye the…
That time, they had got 100 cops….
T: kitna parakram hai aapke andar…
You have so much strength and ability…..
B: prakram dekhoge to aap bhi mere paas khade nahi rahoge…yeh bhi main aapko bole deta hu…main jab prakram karna chalo karta hu na to bologe bahanchod iske paas khada nahi rahne ka…itna krodh hai mera…par hindu ke liye nahi hai…main kabhi hindu ko ek lappad nahi maari…mera khali do aadmiyu…
If you see my parakram, even you won’t dare to stand in front of me…… I am telling you….. If I start doing Parakrama, then people say don’t stand close to him…… I have so much anger in me…… But not for Hindus…… I have never even slapped a Hindu ever……. My anger is against two types of people……
T: hmm
B: do vyakti ke uppar hi...ek Christian aur ek yeh musalmaan
On two….. one Christian and another Muslim….
T: kuchh christianoo ko marra hai aapne kabhi…
Have you killed some Christians sometimes?
B: bahut maara hai…mera remand aapne nahi dekha abhi…
I have thrashed them so much…… You haven’t seen my remand……
T: remand matlab?
Remand means?
B: main miya ko lake remand karta hu unki…
I get Muslims and take them in remand…..
T: kissi din dikhaiye
Show me someday how…..
03:28:55/09259 (closing counter)
Babu now makes a phone call to his attendant sitting outside and tells him to bring in 7-8 girls staying at his house. These girls had earlier eloped with or married to Muslims only to be ‘rescued’ by Babu and his men. He calls these girls by the names of the Muslim boys they had run away with. Babu after ‘rescuing’ these girls brings them to his house in Naroda, Ahmedabad and then, to use his own words, ‘brainwashes’ them. Once they are fit to be married to Hindu boys he hands them over to their parents. Babu now asks me to wait for the girls to arrive. In the meantime he says he will go and have his lunch.
The file 4 ends and with this ends the pre-lunch meeting with Babu on August 10, 2007. |
